Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. I spend a great deal of time on the range. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. Let the operators in theater chose what they want. It makes a bigger hole. Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. Anyway great comments to all. Pain is generally physiologically irrelevant, but where present often just makes motivated targets angry and thus, more motivated. But the US never officially ratified these protocols, and is not officially bound by them. They are a secondary source at best. This is what can incapacitate a target, even with a poorly placed torso shot. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. Everyone should be mocking the .223 as a pea shooter. Hi, I have both. Japanese quail chicks in a studythe results However, the round stopped just short of entering Platts heart/aorta, only penetrating his torso about six or seven inches. Glocks are cheap and reliable. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. Also, the 9mm cartridges are less expensive. A 35-45 psi When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. Vital organs sit deep within the human body, so penetration and permanent cavity volume are important factors. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. When the. For two decades, MARSOC operators have been allowed to carry custom-built Colt 1911s chambered in .45ACP. CHEERS. JavaScript is disabled. The .223 generates a far larger shock wave, and penetrates farther, than the .22. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. And other trauma surgeons are on record as saying that they cannot tell the difference between wounds caused by 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. However, at 15 feet in your living room that is a concern regardless of what you are using unless you have a 22 or a 380. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. Copyright 2023 Everyone should buy a magnum-powered handgun in .357 or larger caliber and feel completely secure that he or she has the best stopping power. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. While, I understand that budgetary issues are a factor they should not come before the safety of the officer pr soldier. I have used the 1911 govt. True. The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. I do lean toward my 1911 just because I like it. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. Now let me add a little something about 9mm vs .45. Tearing and rupturing is common in tissue surrounding the wound channel. There will always by that guy who can take several shots before dropping, and there will always be that perfect head shot. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. I use +P ammo. He was a deputy sheriff. If I think it can get that bad where Im going. I have a Ruger American 9 mm full size and its twin in a 45 caliber, I will say yes the 45 caliber is a larger round with more in a way push behind it, but I totally agree with the proper placement of that round when firing is the deciding factor. and departments. The general plan of attack for officers is to use some weapon other than a handgun. Just carry what YOU feel most comfortable with and shoot the best with as shot placement is most important. finds relevant news, identifies important training information, A bigger hole is better than a smaller hole and more holes is better than one hole. I read this after selling my XD Tactical in .40 to a friend and then settled on .45 GAP. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. All rights reserved. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. We report stories that would go untold. Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. Ret. Fired expert m14. The 45 acp caused significant damage to the human body. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. To each their own. If one of these conditions occurs, the human body should induce a counterbalance in the form of an opposite condition. Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. Anyone who has seen Clint Eastwoods Dirty Harry movies is familiar with Sergeant Callahans favorite sidekick, his .44 magnum revolver. So In a effort to Much of the difference is 15 round magazine is better than a 7 round magazine. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. unless the guy is coming at you with body armor, if you have more than three bullets in your gun you dont really have a lot to worry about. I dont know if the recoil might throw me off. His logic was that if there ever were a scene where they got into a firefight and one deputy ran out of ammo any of the others could provide him with one of their spare mags. In my limited experience, shot placement is is the ultimate factor with any round. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes.. For another 2+ years. I even tried to do the same test with my Tuger SR9 compact and it was a worse outcome than the Walther. I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. WebYes, definitely. Then get ready for a gunfight. Copyright 2023 But you still want the best caliber possible, because while people are disposed to fall down when shot, not every target does. Please dont send me any hate mail. Case in point, a 1600lb bull mooseshot 3 times at 50 yards with a .338 magnum. This is accomplished through simple physics; a larger bullet imparts more force into its target than a smaller one. Trailing was easy in snow, but took nearly a mile to put down with another shot low through the heart. I have several. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. F = MA is absolutely true as it applies to ballistics. So youre that guy safe at home on the computer. This is because, unless you get a central nervous system hit extremely difficult there is no physiological reason a target would become incapacitated until blood loss and extreme loss of blood pressure occurs. The above referenced expert needs to stick with whatever he may really be an expert at. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. Died instantly. Most people ask to be shot with the 9mm instead of the .45acp. However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. In this article, we will present what we believe to be the most credible information regarding wound ballistics from studies conducted by the FBIs Firearms Training Academy in legendary Quantico, Virginia. Reality. I have never shot a people. The reason is recoil. Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. Cheap crap. While the tissue affected by the temporary cavity isnt completely destroyed like that in the direct path of the bullet, it does suffer trauma, especially if the bullet travels past less-flexible parts of the body, like bone or dense organs like the liver, which can shatter or rupture from the shockwave. the statement that a 9mm can carry more bullets. True. And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. Muscle memory is great thing. Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. It seems to me to be better than the 9mm or the 45 acp Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. Robert MacNemerra knew nothing about firearms but his decision that the AR-15s chrome lined bore and chamber was a needless waste of money brought a whole lot of grief to a whole lot of people. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. I have my personal preferences and it is the .45 ACP, next is the 40 S&W, down the line a couple of notches is the 9mm.

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